Some observations of the behavioural patterns of Japanese and English-speaking anime fans

Teamwork vs Non-teamwork

• If I have to describe the two fandoms through visual images, I would have them represented thus: the Japanese fans are like a classroom of pupils seated in neat rows of desks and none of the desks touches each other; the English-speaking fans are sitting in a circle with the desks pushed toward the walls of the classroom.
• There are primarily two modes of participation for Japanese fans: i) building individual fansites linked in a webring and; ii) anonymous postings at ch2 where the posters are so anonymous that they cannot even be identified by username. The former is the classroom where the pupils sit in rows - all order and discipline and doing-your-own-assignment-to-be-submitted-to-the-teacher. The later is the toilet where individuals scribble troll-ish ejaculations on the partition walls knowing that no one would ever find out who wrote what. These two modes of participation have existed for some years and are unlikely to change in the near future. You may think of them as the 'light' and 'shadow' fandoms in Japan.
• Modes of participation for English-speaking have changed over the years. Mailing lists and IRC used to be popular, now the platforms of choice seem to be blogs and community forums. Either way the innate tendency of English-speaking fans is to aggregate and interact. Fansub culture promotes team work (hence my analogy of pupils sitting in a circle). I am not aware of any separation of 'light' and 'shadow' fandoms among English-speaking fans.
• Not all Japanese fansites show up on search engines and not all fan blogs are equipped with RSS feeds. I have been told that this is because fanart and fanfic are technically infringements on copyright in Japan, which is why it is something of a taboo to link to their fansites without authorization. The point is, they tend hide away in some obscure corner of cyberspace. English-speaking fansites, by contrast, are out there to evangelize.

Logos vs Eros

• English-speaking fans tend to approach an anime series through the application of reason and logic. Japanese fans tend to approach an anime series through the application of emotion and feeling.
• Research on topics like historic background, mythical symbolism are more common with English-speaking fans. If something is unclear, the tendency among English-speaking fans is to look it up, write it up and serve it up, whereas the tendency among Japanese fans is to let it pass.
• You may call it the Rational Western Mind at work: on top of research, English-speaking fans like to take a body of details and develop theories of how these details are connected. After gathering the who, when, what, where and how, English-speaking fans want to know the why. I must say - although I frequent Japanese and Chinese fandoms as well, the most interesting analysis I have ever read all come from English-speaking fans.
• The creative genius of English-speaking fandom lies in identifying and decoding of the elements of an anime. The creative genius of the Japanese fandom lies in fanart.
• English-speaking fans are more sensitive to plot holes (ie. gaps in cause and effect), anachronisms (ie. failure to align time and space in the correct order) and supernatural intrusions into the material world (ie. the X factor that upsets the chain of causation). Many times have I seen English-speaking fans spotting obvious and not-so-obvious plot holes and anarchronisms which go unmentioned in the Japanese fandom. Also, English-speaking fans tend to react negatively towards the supernatural elements unless they see a good reason that justifies the incorporation of the supernatural. The dividing line between the supernatural and natural worlds do not seem to be as clearly marked for Japanese fans.
• Often there are Japanese fans on ch2 who say 'this show sucks' and not a word more. Sometimes the same remark, albeit worded differently, appear in over ten entries, only to be continued in ten more entries after a break. It is possible that the same person is repeating the same thing over and over again. It is also possible that several persons are there to express the same sentiment without stating why they hate it. On the other hand, the expectation in the English-speaking fandom is that if you called a show 'shitty', you had better be prepared to state your reasons. Japanese fans tend not to justify subjective likes and dislikes with objective reasons. English-speaking fans tend to justify subjective likes and dislikes with objective reasons. Granted, subjective likes and dislikes and objective reasons are closely related - it's just that there is a greater readiness among English-speaking fans to establish the link.

The above are quite desultory and I may have more to add later on. Meanwhile, please do not hesitate to agree, disagree, correct me or add to the above points.

Comments

[Nick]

Interesting observations. As such, I cannot agree or disagree because I only see one side of this.

I do wonder if some of this could be explained in that the English-speaking fandom on the net is, in general, older than the Japanese-speaking fandom? You see many of the same things from the younger English-speaking fans on anime boards (at least those that you can identify their ages). I'm 28, myself. Most of the people that I that I directly discuss anime with (online and in real life) range from the ages of 21 on up.

Do the Japanese, as a whole, "grow out of" anime as they get older? (Hmm... this would be quite an amusing thing to toss at those "anime aren't cartoons!" people... ;) )

[w]

Only a brief comment because I'm sneaking on in school - about saying whether a show is good or bad, on 2ch it's free-for-all to say what you like (generally), but when it comes to the individual fansites you're usually advised to be VERY careful about what you say. On the Iroha search engine, when people started bashing Kakunojou the search engine webmaster said that any sites that clearly do this will be removed from the search engine. And generally when people want to flame or bash, among female circles at least it seems to be common courtesy to write it in small text, text that needs to be highlighted or under a cut of some sorts.

I think I have more to say but I'll leave it for a little later.

[Wabisabi]

I know one anime fan I talk to a lot is 17 (yes, I am talking about you, w-dono), but that has never stopped her from researching and wondering how it all fits together.

I remember some years ago EVA also drew a teenage audience (my younger brother was one), who were likewise big on researching the symbolism and theorizing what it all meant.

I think part of it may have to do with the western style and Japanese style of education. From junior high onwards, the only form of writing composition I ever got to do in Canada was the essay - you state your argument and you proceed logically point-by-point to support your thesis. I understand from my Japanese friends that the composition they did at school tended to be more impressionistic. They seem to write a lot more on some direct and subjective experience they have had and what they have derived from it.

So naturally, when English-speaking fans take to the pen (or keyboard), their thought-process is identical to the thought-process required for an argumentative essay. And likewise for Japanese fans.

Maybe up to a few years ago, young people in Japan were expected to give up anime after a certain age. The picture is more complicated nowadays with the demographic decline of the young population. It is an ineviable commercial decision on the part of anime producers to either create shows oriented to a more mature audience, sometimes by remaking old shows:

http://irohanihoheto.typepad.com/toward_the_terra/2007/03/annoucement_new.html

[Wabisabi]

(For the benefit of anyone reading W-dono's comment above - Kakunojou is a character from Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto.)

Which search engine are you talking about and where does it say so? I can't seem to find my way and I just want to reading the wording for myself. It's odd that the webmaster should penalize others for exercising their freedom of thought. -__-

[w]

Again a quick post while sneaking on from school (I should go do some work -_-): I refer to ttp://b-iroha.infoseek.ne.jp. Of course she did not mention Kakunojou specifically, but unless I am mistaken this part was either added in or emphasised around the time of episodes 16 onwards or so. I can't remember the exact place where it was but from the signup guidelines there's this text (I added the stars for emphasis).

"他人のプライバジーを侵害・自分自身の個人情報の開示・著作権を侵害する行為やそれを推奨、示唆する発言・******特定の人物やキャラクターまたはカップリングに対して非難および誹謗中傷を行っている******・アダルトサイト・出会い系・犯罪・宗教・法人・商業関係サイトは予告なくサーチから登録を削除する場合があります。"

Think of it, perhaps, as some kind of etiquette of sorts... They can still express their displeasure but would have to be more delicate (or something) in their wording. Like "shichousha ga amari nattoku ikanai tenkai" or something along those lines (pardon me there's no Japanese IME here.) Doesn't stop people from disliking whatever they want, like by conspicuously avoiding certain figures from their comments/fanart, slowing down activity or even closing down their site.

[Wabisabi]

It does say 'criticizing and slandering certain persons, characters or pairings'.

But then I guess it fits in with the whole avoid-criticism-at-all-costs culture in Japan. I have been told that they do not rate movies with a five-star system and the magazine reviews you ever read of any books or movies are pre-approved by the publisher or distributor.

Back at university, I once translated a NYT article from English into Japanese on my own for practice and let a Japanese friend correct my grammar, and she felt weird reading such sharp criticism in Japanese because in Japan they never publish anything worded so strongly.

I uploaded the original English article and my Japanese translation in word format, so that you can get an idea of the level of 'harshness' permissible in the English-speaking press but not-so-permissible in the Japanese press:

http://irohanihoheto.typepad.com/Calling_All_LudditesENG.doc
http://irohanihoheto.typepad.com/Calling_All_LudditesJAP.doc

[w]

The translated version does seem to be pretty toned-down. Well, it seems to fit with whatever else that seems to be apparent with Japanese society...
Isn't it that whole concept of tatemae and honne? No matter how harsh your honne is, to preserve the general niceness and etiquette you're expected to speak politely. After all, you're not so important as to be having a strong opinion and getting away with it...

Unfortunately as far as I can see it, all this bottling-up leads to an extremely pressured individual. And where do they release it? On places like 2ch. In fact, I've been having extended conversations with a 2ch anime otaku recently, and was told that 2ch is something like a natural byproduct of Japanese society (in modern times, at least). I don't know how misinformed I am or what - having never read any Nihonjinron or lived there etc. - but in a society where having a name attached to strong opinions is likely to get you dangerously shot down, and keeping up the tatemae is the name of the game, naturally when people want to unleash their inner frustration and demons and say all the things they're not allowed to, they'll do it in a place where they can't be identified and it's free for all. So if people want to say something sucks without having to come up with reason upon reason for it as they would have to otherwise, they'll just say it straight away - and everyone else will understand.

Regarding the reason why they have different attitudes: I think it may be of worth to note the role anime plays in both societies. I'm too tired to write anything coherent, but basically anime is seen as entertainment first in Japan probably because of its embedded status in Japan (as in, it's something people get used to and everyone knows, also there is a prevailing opinion on the topic). Whereas it's still seen relatively as something worth discussing outside of Japan. I get the feeling most Japanese fans watch anime to be entertained first - case in point, one Japanese guy at the animesuki forums once commented in a thread where everyone was discussing stuff seriously: "Why are you guys taking it so seriously? It's just entertainment, I dont' see why foreign fans can't just relax and enjoy it as it is". Or something along those lines.

Interestingly enough according to the same 2ch guy I mentioned earlier, anime might be expereincing a good period now precisely because of overseas attention to it. Previously most people didn't care so much about anime or it was generally kept as a quiet topic - but when foreign attention is given to anime suddenly more people start noticing it. If the foreigners like it it must be good! kind of thing. No other reason why GITS, which was financially a bomb in Japan, got no less than 2 26-ep TV series and an extra movie to boot, all with a very high budget. It's been mentioned elsewhere that some shows would not turn a profit if it wasn't for foreign licensing.

One last random point I had to add: you are more likely to find the fun-seeking English-speaking fan not interested in deep discussions more often now. The ones that have cottoned onto the fact that most anime is not "srs biznis" and feel it is largely pretentious and a waste of time to go on discussing anime so much. It's just that perhaps they are not in the places you're looking at.
Also you get a lot of these type who are really other-language fans (Chinese, Malay, whatever) but are just typing in English to join in the fun (and the goodies).

I probably have more to say abou this but I'll leave it here for now.

[Wabisabi]

Thanks, for this comment. I don't have anything to add for the moment, but thanks. ^-^

[w]

Just another rambling since I felt like it. Pardon me.

I think a related idea is the demographics of who watches anime in Japan compared to overseas. In other countries where, as I mentioned, it's a relative novelty, you get a lot of educated adults who are well-read and serious about watching it and hence make a lot of serious discussion about it. As you mentioned, younger fans are also interested in such discussions probably because a. the discussions are there and b. they're at an age where it truly moves them and they're inspired to talk about it.

In Japan, however, by the time you come to a teenage level even among most otaku it seems that taking anime to such a serious level - or, at least, publicly doing it - isn't particularly a good thign to do. I'm not really sure about it, but what I am sure about is that by the time you get to that age anime doesn't really have the same kind of "magic" and awe factor that inspires people over here to be so taken up with it and discuss it in such earnest.

I guess in a way all the usual "tricks" and "real meanings" are seen through very easily by someone who has been immersed in the culture for so long. All the interesting stuff is taken along with the very clear knowledge that it's out to be entertainment and that certain decisions would have been made in the interest of the producers /to get viewers and not necessarily as a genuine thing to be interested about. Of course there must be exceptions to this. But from what little I know, it appears that the exception - i.e. the people who earnestly discuss anime in a serious manner looking at its themes etc. - are mostly unseasoned anime fans, or not-very-otaku otaku.

Another thing is that anime is looked down upon so no self-respecting intellectual or white-collar worker (for lack of a better word) would be caught being an anime fan. I imagine they wouldn't want to discuss this sort of thing with their regular office mates and try to keep it as hidden as possible, and due to their hectic schedules end up having less time for anime compared to their Western coutnerparts, perhaps? I'm not really making sense here anymore, just writing down whatever's coming across my mind...

I'd like to be proven most terribly wrong, anyway. I don't think it means that the Japanese are incapable of appreciating anime the same way we do - it's just taht it's sort of been "taken for granted" for so long...

[Wabisabi]

It's perfectly okay to get things off your chest. ^-^

I suppose I am a not-very-otaku otaku. -__- I see your point that in Japan real otaku do not discuss anime seriously in spite of being otaku. That's a very good point to raise.

I wonder if it may not be just the West's tendency to decode, interpret and theorize about anything under the sun. The West did the same thing with ukiyo-e before the Japanese themselves came to appreciate ukiyo-e (which was also meant to be commercial instead of purely artistic). Likewise, the West has also tried to systematically interpret things from a foreign culture that would have never occurred to the 'locals' to be interpretable - like religious rites, styles of art, social customs etc. As anime is one of many things under the sun, that is what the West ends up doing as well. You don't see the same intellectual activity coming from outside the West, unless it is from someone who has had a western education.

I am comfortable with what I am doing with anime now. Just because the Japanese do not care about Japanese anime the same way, it doesn't mean that Japanese fans will not be eventually converted to the approach taken by western fans. The same thing happened with ukiyo-e, the same thing could also happen for anime.

[w]

Well, sometimes I can understand it when they find it silly that Western fans take their interpretation of anime too far. I can agree that some shows really are enjoyed better without being read into too much; and I also tend to dislike shows that try to appeal to this crowd by making themselves too obviously "complex and layered" ala Ergo Proxy (which in my not-so-humble opinion was largely way too pretentious in an obvious aim to the intellectual Western crowd; however its direction and pacing was rather... I'm digressing here.)

But as you have said this is not going to stop me from analysing whatever the hell I want to out of anime if I feel like it. In the way Japanese fans have paintchats and art exchanges and doujin fairs and such, I guess we have our nerdy cons and forum discussions and so on. This is one of our ways of enjoying the work more, I guess, and it doesn't hurt anybody anyway.

Regarding the way the two different types of fans express themselves, perhaps it's no coincidence that one tends to see more literary and text-based fan output from Western spheres compared to the predominantly visual-oriented output from Eastern spheres. It's not like there's Japanese and Chinese fanfics and such, but it seems to me that most of the fanart I see - good ones anyawy - are largely by Japanese and Chinese artists (or English-speaking Chinese).

Having said *all* of this... It just happens I've been talking to (and still am talkign to) said 2ch otaku right now. We're having an extremely interesting conversation and I've somehow managed to move it to this topic and... well, it's interesting. Not just on this topic.

[Wabisabi]

I checked out Ergo Proxy some time ago and was bored by the second episode. In my mind, a truly 'deep and sophisticated' show ought to satisfy two and all two of the requirements (I am actually borrowing this definition from a certain Robertson Davies):

i) It has to be a tale to the simple.
ii) It has to be a word to the wise.

In other words, the story itself should be enjoyable whether you dig deep into it or not, and those who choose to read more into it can do so and find hidden gems within the story. Ergo Proxy just does not seem to satisfy the first requirement, though it seems to or aspires to satisfy the second requirement.

I sometime wonder if the higher quality of fanart from Japanese and Chinese fans may not be a direct result of fine arts education at large. I have been to school in Hong Kong, Canada and the UK. In Hong Kong, I was taught the rudiments such as drafting shapes, brush techniques and perspective at elementary school (along with things like how to read a music score and count the beats). In Canada, I was shocked to learn that in so-called art lessons were just free time for the teacher to slack off while the kids doodle on their own. It was not until *after* middle school that you can take *elective* courses that teach you the basic techniques of art and music. And by the age of 15 or 16... well, it's probably too late to develop any talent in any serious way...

[Hige]

Interesting analysis here. I'd be curious to know if you have any thoughts on the differences between specific Western audiences, such as American fans and European fans.

As a UK anime blogger I’ve noticed a few distinguishing characteristics between my fellow Brits and our American chums. Nothing particularly developed, mind, but I’ve always thought American fans tend to be more ‘academic’ with their analysis, with lots of references to production staff and various other technical aspects. The Brits seem to lean towards the emotional with description of how they relate to particular characters or how they feel about aesthetics in a general sense. We do like to talk about symbolism and suchlike, too, but it seems to be in a much more holistic way.

Anyway, thanks for such a thought provoking post. Keep up the excellent work.

[Hige]

Also, I've just noticed this post is a year old. Apologies for blowing the dust off and reigniting discussion, but everything I've said still stands! :D

[Snoop']

This post and its comments are indeed one of the most interesting of Iwanihana...

Below, comments from a French-Japanese anime fan living in France and trying to express something in English :

I had also noticed that Japanese fans tend (aside from 2ch) to express themselves via personal fansites or blogs. The former often display superb fanart or elaborate fanfics. There are also many styles of review : some people will carefully reflect the whole episode and make only a few comments, other will shout their feelings, complains and "moe" (these are the most fun to read), and some of them will analyze it, looking for references and discussing about who did the key animation, etc. (these are the most stimulating). Anyway, all this is done with courtesy : you tend to mask disagreeable comments, you don't talk about illegal stuff, you rarely make explicit references to external sites/organizations/productions, and visitors are not supposed to "steal" art from a site.
Contrariwise, Western fans tend to express themselves via forums or blogs, and start (for some of them) endless arguments about the plot and its holes, the background references, or why it sucks. I'm not familiar with Deviant Art and such sites, but it seems to me that fanart and fanfics are scarce.

You know, aside from the obvious so-called cartesian western mind and the possible gender bias (unless I'm mistaken, most fansites are owned by female fans, and most anime fans who post on forums are male), an additional factor may be the fact that anime for the western audience is second-hand, or should I say processed material. English-speaking fans watch fansubs or DVDs, so they are already in a different frame than the raw material which aired on TV...

A few years ago, some Japanese blogger said that "otakus are all eager to pour out [their views] because 2D characters can't exist if the audience doesn't give life to them". Well that is in fact the whole point about the Japanese/Western difference. Most Japanese fans will focus on characters and feel empathy for them, either through reviews or fanart. Maybe this is also why 2ch and Niconico Douga work so well. It could explain why high quality and demanding shows like Seirei no Moribito or Paranoia Agent didn't get much attention - also many blogs about SnM were really thoughtful.

Anyway this was my attempt at reaching the "Iwanihana content quality level". ^___^;
I don't this often because writing stuff in English demands significantly more effort and time for me, and it's sooo much easier to rant about how lovely a show is. All in all, I'm someone who focuses on shows that are high-quality comparatively off the beaten path, but ends up chatting moe talk.

[Wabi Sabi]

hige:

The thing is, there is a vast expanse of European fandom in European languages that I don't understand, so I can't really draw any conclusions about them (unlike Japanese and English which I understand and feel qualified to comment).

However, from my interactions with commentators on this blog from Europe - I would say that fans in Europe tend to be more discerning and interested in works off the beaten track. Snoop' here is an example - often I would write a new post about some obscure animation I just saw, and he would reply saying that he had seen it X years/some time ago. Sometimes I wish he would start his own blog or something so that I can check out what he is watching at the moment. Jordan S. (from the UK) is also an incredible resource when it comes to obscure gems of animation.

It's no problem reviving old posts - I have a comment feed for this blog. ^-^

Snoop':

Yes, it would seem to me that most Japanese fansites are owned by females, and those who post on 2ch are most likely male. This makes me wonder about the English-speaking fandom - my impression is that females tend to aggregate in communities like Livejournal where the emphasis is on making like-minded friends and sharing stuff, and males tend to express themselves on blogs where the emphasis is on opinions. The voice of the anime blogging scene in English is predominately male. Even yours truly is mistaken to be male a lot of times.

[w]

W-Wait, I always thought Snoop was female!

Now I've got my gender stereotypes confused! Quick, somebody enlighten me...

I've been mistaken as a guy from the beginning of my days on the intarwebs, but I've seen much less obvious females around. Honestly, my fangirling should more than give it away.

And actually if you're going to mention "sharing stuff", I think it's actually quite common among males on places like forums and imageboards... except it's mostly along the line of posting large collections of fanart and making graphics like signatures (with lots of cool effects)

Females in Western fandoms do share official stuff, but not that much of other people's fanart. I think there's a greater dislike of "stealing" others' artwork among females compared to males, since they seem to be doing the overwhelming majority of anime fanart...

[Wabisabi]

Yes, I think I do remember Snoop' describing himself as a Frenchman at some point...

[Snoop']

o__O
I know I often behave like a fangirl, but I've always put "gender : male" in my AnimeSuki forum profile !

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=44669&page=15
(my latest post in the Mononoke thread, just in case you missed it ;) )

Incidentally, I thought throughout the Mononoke season that Wabi Sabi was a Canadian guy...

Anyway, yes it is very rude to borrow, leat alone steal someone else fanart (I once saw a nice One Piece fansite close down because the owner found out that some dude was using her art on his site, pretending them to be his). Twice, I asked Japanese fansite owners if I could use a picture to make a sig/banner, but it was either no answer or "please don't".
So now I use them without asking. XD

[Wabisabi]

It all goes back to what I said about the 'light' Japanese community being like an organized classroom where everyone does his or her homework. If you ask to borrow their fanart, it's as though you were asking them to borrow their homework. -____-